A simple answer to this question is on the page: When is Jesus Coming?
Although bible students of earlier times may have meant well they were imperfect, as we are today. On the other hand, Jesus was perfect and knew the bible better then anyone else. He stated in Matthew 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” Even regarding his followers and their knowledge of his coming, he stated “Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming” (Matthew 24:42) and “On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming” (Matthew 24:44) See What happens when Jesus comes?
Jesus did not give his loyal followers a date when Jerusalem of the first century was to be surrounded but he alluded to prophesy in Daniel chapter 8 that concerned a sign to signal a time period of upcoming events for them (Matthew 24, Luke 21, Daniel 8) According to Daniel, it is the same for our time period – We are to look for a sign, not a date. This sign is when the king of the North will capture and occupy Jerusalem. This “conquering” most likely will have to at a minimum, place Jerusalem back to its state (in principle) before the “six day war” in 1967 (see point 1.1). It is at this time when a lot of prophesies come into play.
Some proponents of “1914” may say that Jesus did not have to refer to Daniel 4, concerning the appointed times of the nations. If that is the case, it has to stand on its own merit and can not be claimed to be referred to by Jesus. Also, if a man is claiming that Daniel 4 supports “1914” as the “appointed times of the nations”, the claim must be very solid to be put faith in – but it is not as explained below.
These basic reasons are expounded below: Jesus never referred to Daniel 4 about the tree but he did refer to the times of the “king of the north” (Daniel 7,8,11) and the resurrection (Daniel 12). // Just because a tree reaches the clouds does not mean it represents Jehovah’s rulership. // Daniel 12 explains what a time is and so we know that in Daniel 4 the “seven times” mean – simply seven years. // When Jerusalem of old was captured by Nebuchadnezzar, it was neither “king of the north” that is described in Daniel.
Further reasons why current arguments of Jehovah’s Witnesses are incorrect:
- The publication WHAT DOES THE BIBLE Really TEACH on Page 215 states: “1914 – A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy” par.2 uses the term “appointed time of the nations” from Luke 21:24. It also quotes the familiar term “the times of the Gentiles” from the King James Version. Luke 21:24 seems to have a dual meaning. It had a meaning for Jehovah’s people back in the first century and has meaning for our day (See the Daniel link) but it does not or ever refer to the “tree” or “seven times” in Daniel chapter 4. Also, “appointed time” can refer to numerous passages in the bible so I have described below two very important periods concerning thorough testing for Jehovah’s people.
- For the first century destruction of Jerusalem: This is based upon prophesy in Daniel 11:9-20 (Rome) and Daniel 8:4-12 (Greece and Rome). But notice Daniel 8:13 “How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?” Here Daniel was talking about a timeframe of this vision NOT the vision of King Nebuchadnezzar and the tree in Daniel 4. In Daniel 8, this time period apparently started with this beast’s (“male of the goats”) campaign (made up of Greece and Rome – For it was Rome who destroyed Jerusalem. But this started with the “male of the goats coming from the sunset upon the surface of the whole earth, and it was not touching the earth”) (Daniel 8:5) AND would have a definite end that is, with the end of the trampling of “[the] holy place and [the] army” (Daniel 8:13). This started with the year of 334 BCE. At 20 years of age, Alexander the Great claimed the throne in 336 BCE and it was in 334 BCE that he along with 30,000 infantry soldiers and 5,000 cavalry soldiers crossed the Hellespont into Asia and he never returned – dying in 323 BC. Then add the “2,300 evenings [and] mornings” (2,300 years) (Daniel 8:14) and the result is the recent year of June of 1967 when Israel firmly established it’s position (by showing by war it was not to be trampled on by the surrounding nations. And it captured the “old city” area of Jerusalem of which it had none of before since its destruction in 70 CE. Remember, “Jerusalem” today is larger then what it was in the first century. Also, when doing research, it is good to note that the term “East Jerusalem” has more then one definition and they are not entirely compatible.). This does not indicate that Jehovah accepts them as his holy ones today (See Daniel link). (A formula which is accurate and I use for time periods extending over the “zero year” is: ((full time period of years that extend over the “zero” year) minus (start year (BCE)) plus (one (to coincide with our calendar)))). This is one example of time periods that are represented by beasts. However, there is another very significant time period for the nations – See timeline.
- For our day and the coming “and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature]” (Daniel 11:31): This is the conquering of the literal Jerusalem, in our day, by the king of the north (which strongly points to Russia or one of its allies in ideals, at this time, causing Jerusalem to revert to its condition before the 1967 “six-day” war at a minimum). Just as in the first century, there is no starting date given or “formula” to be figured out. Just a sign. That sign being acts against Jerusalem that causes it to “fall”. That is probably one reason why Jesus said no one knew the day or the hour – And he was the smartest human to ever live! Anyhow, Daniel does define a period of time for our near future as “from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” (Daniel 12:11) This “an appointed time, appointed times and a half ” mentioned at Daniel 12:7c is either this entire 1,290 days or it is part of it (See “day 1 to 1,290” page). This is the start of Jesus reigning in heaven and when Satan is restricted to the earth with authority over God’s people- See timeline.
- The claim that the tree in Daniel 4 represented Jehovah’s throne is incorrect and not supported in the bible.
- The thought that God’s rulership began to be trampled on by the nations back in 607 BCE is not supported in the bible. It is an incorrect theory held on to support the incorrect theory that 1914 was the beginning of Jesus ruling in heaven. Luke 21:24 “and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” It is very important to realize the time period that this refers to. Luke 21:20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the country places not enter into her; because these are the days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. Woe to the pregnant women and the ones sucking a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” Here, Jesus was referring to the prophesy in Daniel 8 – mentioned earlier in 1.1. The “trampling” did not start yet but had yet to start, when Jesus stated the above and it was just a part of the vision in Daniel 8. It is not recorded that Jesus ever referred to Daniel 4 regarding this “times of the nations” as being the “seven times” in Daniel 4. Plus it does not fit with other prophesies (See timeline) and Daniel.
- It is acknowledged that trees in the bible can represent people. Daniel 4:23-25 “..”CHOP the tree down, and RUIN it. However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it,” this is the interpretation O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like the bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.” This tree represented King Nebuchadnezzar and the seven times represented seven years. The lesson of the vision was that Jehovah is the one who sets and removes kings as he desires and that it is of no credit to the kings themselves that they have the position they do. Jehovah is the Most High. There is no evidence that Jesus referred to this account of the tree when warning his disciples of the appointed time of the nations.
- Pharaoh (and possibly representing Satan in some ways) was also depicted as a great tree at Ezekiel 31 that was to be chopped down. But just because it was “heaven high” or “among the clouds” did not mean it represented God’s supreme rulership – particularly in its relationship to the earth. Verse 2: “Son of man, say to Pharaoh the king of Egypt and to his crowd, ” ‘Whom have you come to resemble in your greatness? Look! An Assyrian, a cedar in Lebanon, pretty in bough, with a woody thicket offering shadow, and high in stature, so that among the clouds its treetop proved to be. Waters were what made it get big; the watery deep caused it to grow high. With its streams it was going all around its planting place; and its channel sit sent forth to all the trees of the field. That is why it grew higher in stature then all the [other] trees of the field. (vs.5b) ” ‘And its boughs kept multiplying, and its branches continued getting longer because of much water in its watercourses. On its boughs all the flying creatures of the heavens made their nests, and under its branches all the wild beasts of the field gave birth, and in its shade all the populous nations would dwell. And it came to be pretty in its greatness, in the length of its foliage, for its root system proved to be over many waters. [Other] cedars were no match for it in the garden of God. As for juniper trees, they bore no resemblance as respects its boughs. And plane trees themselves did not prove to be like it in branches. No [other] tree in the garden of God resembled it in its prettiness. Pretty is the way that I made it in the abundance of its foliage, and all the [other] trees of Eden that were in the garden of the [true] God kept envying it.’ (vs10) “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘For the reason that you became high in stature, so that it put its treetop even among the clouds and its heart became exalted because of its height. I shall also give it into the hand of the despot of [the] nations. Without fail he will act against it. According to its wickedness I will drive it out. And strangers, the tyrants of [the] nations, will cut it down, and people will abandon it upon the mountains; and in all the valleys its foliage will certainly fall, and its branches will be broken among all the streambeds of the earth. And out from its shade all the peoples of the earth will come down and abandon it. Upon its fallen trunk all the flying creatures of the heavens will reside, and upon its branches there will certainly come to be all the wild beasts of the field; to the end that none of the watered trees may become high in their stature, or put their treetops even among the clouds, and that none drinking water may stand up against them in their height, for they will certainly all of them be given to death, to the land down below, in the midst of the sons of mankind, to those going down into the pit.’ (vs.15) “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘On the day of its going down to Sheol I shall certainly cause a mourning. On its account I will cover the watery deep, that I may hold back its streams and [that] the many waters may be restrained; and on its account I shall darken Lebanon, and on its account the trees of the field will all swoon away. At the sound of its downfall I shall certainly cause nations to rock when I bring it down to Sheol with those going down into the pit, and in the land down below all the trees of Eden, the choicest and the best of Lebanon, all those drinking water, will be comforted, With him they themselves also have gone down to Sheol, to those slain by the sword, and those who as his seed have dwelt in his shadow in the midst of nations.’ (vs.18) ” ‘Whom have you come to resemble thus in glory and greatness among the trees of Eden? But you will certainly be brought down with the trees of Eden to the land down below. In the midst of the uncircumcised ones you will lie down with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his crowd,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”
- Jeremiah 51:9 speaks of Babylon reaching heaven (not as a tree but as a mountain (vs.25)) but in a bad way: “We would have been healed Babylon, but she has not been healed. Leave her, YOU people, and let us go each one to his own land. For clear to the heavens her judgment has reached, and it has been lifted up to the cloudy skies.”
- The bible does speak of a tree representing God’s intended government for the earth but it is described as a sprout transplanted upon Jehovah’s mountain – not the earth. Notice too where it refers to the rulers of the earth as “all the trees of the field” – Isaiah 11:1 states: “And there must go forth a twig out of the stump of Jesse; and out of his roots a sprout will be fruitful.” (Talking about Jesus as the sprout); Ezekiel 17:22-24 ” ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “I myself will also take and put some of the lofty tree top of the cedar; from the top of its twigs I shall pluck off a tender one and I will myself transplant [it] upon a high and lofty mountain. On the mountain of the height of Israel I shall transplant it, and it will certainly bear boughs and produce fruit and become a majestic cedar. And under it there will actually reside all the birds of every wing; in the shadow of its foliage they will reside. And all the trees of the field will have to know that I myself, Jehovah, have abased the high tree, have put on high the low tree, have dried up the still-moist tree and have made the dry tree blossom. I myself, Jehovah, have spoken and have done [it].” ‘ ” // Here where it speaks of Jehovah abasing the high tree and putting on high the low tree is the same lesson the King Nebuchadnezzar learned. That is, that Jehovah is the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.” (Daniel 4:25)
- Many bible students back in October of 1914 were highly expecting great things to happen as they prophesied that this was to be the time of Jesus beginning his rule on earth – It was supposed to be as Charles Taze Russel stated that it was the end of the Gentile times! Well, the end of the Gentile rule mean God’s kingdom ruling over the entire earth! See Daniel 2:44 and Notes for Daniel 7,8, and 11-12. It is a simple conclusion that it was a wrong interpretation of scripture. It is a sad conclusion that instead of reevaluating the scriptures, ones held onto this prophesy as being true. This has resulted in the clouding of other time related prophesy.
- To review the reasoning in the WHAT DOES THE BIBLE Really TEACH? publication:
- Page 216 : ” How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be “trampled on by the nations”? This happened in 607 BCE when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians.” This is an absolutely incorrect assumption for some of the following reasons:
- First of all it is important to define this time period “trampled on by the nations” mentioned at Luke 21:24 by considering the context especially starting with verse 20; “Furthermore, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her; because these are the days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. Woe to the pregnant women and the ones sucking a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” Notice that this event of trampling is worded by Jesus as yet something to happen by saying “Jerusalem will be…” The parallel account at Matthew 24:15-22 states : “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. Woe to the pregnant women and those sucking a baby in those days! Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the worlds beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” Notice this is referring to Daniel in multiple places but NOWHERE (that I see) does it refer to Daniel chapter 4 where the illustration of the tree or the “seven times” is located. The trampling would actually end before Jesus becomes king in heaven but it would be resumed by the king of the north just before Jesus becomes king in heaven. “And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature]. And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.” To see how this is the king of the north for our time see timeline and 1.1 and 1.2 on this page.
- On page 216 paragraph 1, it references 2 Kings 25:1-26. This is the description of Babylon laying a siege wall all around Jerusalem and capturing it. That is true that this happened but it should not get mixed up with any “kings of the north” in Daniel that conquer Jerusalem. The king of the north that conquered Jerusalem the first time was Rome and is described in chapter 8 and 11 of Daniel. This “king of the north” (Rome) had a totally different ending (Daniel 11:20) then what Babylon did (Daniel 5:22-31). The account at 2 Kings 25:1-26 should not get mixed up with the “kings of the north” of the first century or today. The accounts of the “kings of the north” begin long after the fall of Babylon.
- Page 217 par.2 It is defining the “trampling of the nations” as God’s rulership interrupted. And it is tried to be reasoned out that Jesus was installed as God’s heavenly king in 1914, in the remaining paragraphs on the page. However, this theory does not fit with actions of the king of the north and south in the time of the end. It also does not fit with numerous other prophesies concerning Jesus’ second coming either. Such as in Daniel 12:7b “And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”- This strongly indicates that the legal structure (if not more) of Jehovah’s people are “dashed to pieces” very shortly before Jesus begins his rulership on earth.
- Page 216 : ” How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be “trampled on by the nations”? This happened in 607 BCE when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians.” This is an absolutely incorrect assumption for some of the following reasons: